tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post4272820683771480874..comments2023-04-15T10:40:46.482+01:00Comments on From The Fang: Land speeder vs Wolf Scouts - Sticking up for the Little Guy(s)From The Fanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-16464450600569022862010-12-21T06:18:33.624+00:002010-12-21T06:18:33.624+00:00+ Providing that the other firebase is not <36&...+ Providing that the other firebase is not <36" away, yes the Speeder has to flat-out to get there. But averaging 9.5" a turn by running, that takes the Scouts three turns to relocate. The Speeder can also flat-out behind cover [out of TLOS] and the hop over it. The Scouts just don't have the range to consistently move through cover and Mg something.<br /><br />+ Yes bolters can stuff the Speeder. 6s to glance and then 50% means the Speeder relocates next turn.<br />But Speeders *can* move block, another advantage of being Armour. I used it just this past weekend, and I was right next to my foes long table edge.<br /><br />"...how can you really protect all of your tanks from something that can turn up anywhere, has a threat range of 24" and can boogy 24" to completely relocate?"<br />The same way you deal with any deep-strikers. If you aren't coming for my tanks with your landspeeder then I don't care. That means I can protect them and leave my other units in safety. Against scouts you've got to worry about anything being too close to the edge.<br /><br />+ I think it is much harder to protect against something that can a] turn up anywhere b] has a longer range c] is available in two separate units if we are talking similar points & d] is far more mobile<br /><br />I think Speeders work even better than normal in Mech lists as do Scouts work even better in Foot lists.<br /><br />I feel that I have shown the Speeder consistently pip the Scouts in all categories bar mêlée.<br />For a parallel; yes, rifleman dreads are great but Fangs are greater, if you catch my drift.<br /><br />*I found it hard to include all our posts within the word limit and so got rid of all of it.<br />Healthy and respectful debate is always a good thing :)Marshal Wilhelmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08274955398809519542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-9802191041525039092010-12-21T06:04:42.345+00:002010-12-21T06:04:42.345+00:00+ The thing is your Speeders are on the table whil...+ The thing is your Speeders are on the table whilst you still have your transports, hopefully. This gives the foe the tyranny of choice. Do I shoot the Speeder or the Rhino with 200 points of Grey in it. The foe will only have x amount of guns that are good enough to legitimately suppress AV. However, the foe should have more than enough small arms to point at the Scouts, especially if your Greys still have intact transports.<br /><br /><br />+ Whilst redundancy is a great thing, the Speeder costs 70 pts. Mg, Pp, Pp Scouts with MB and a Wolf Guard with combi-Mg is 163 pts for a 5+1 strong pack. I could have 2 Speeders and change for that amount. <br />Also remember overkill. A Pred 'overkills' a Rhino with its 3 guns. Long Fangs split fire and engage 2 Rhinos. We all know Fangs are the best DevEq due to being as cheap as Bloods Devs AND having split fire.<br />That second Speeder lands somewhere else and targets a different unit. Plus you have 2 rolls for reserves, which is more reliable, imo.<br /><br />+ The Speeder is not exposed to that at all. Yes it is a small risk, but the Speeder does not have it.<br /><br />+ Hang on. First, this is *another* chance of the Scouts helping the foe be rid of them. Secondly, you say it is expensive, and is actually more expensive than the much better Mg. <br />If you are crafting a list, imo, you "shouldn't" have 15/30 spare points lying around and then say, hmmm, yeah why not?<br />I go over my lists and tighten and re-tighten them for, imo, perfection ~ at least as good as I can muster anyway :P<br /><br />+ I can have 2 Speeders to one Scout pack.<br /><br />+ But I wouldn't have my tanks within 12" of the board edges. Yes that *is* a win to you by causing something that is desirable, but your squad turns up and gives me something that is not too hard to kill, as I don't have units by themselves. The Speeder doesn't worsen its survivability after MM something. Scouts do when they assault.<br /><br />+ Yes that is true, however, the Scouts can only threaten something within 12" of a board edge. The Speeder can land anywhere on the table.<br /><br />+ The Speeder may well end up just as dead. However, it should nearly always have a chance of getting a shot off. The Scouts are stuck running, therefore not killing anything. The Scouts move 7-12" and do not shoot. The Speeder mpves 12 and can MELTA something another 12" away.Marshal Wilhelmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08274955398809519542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-58962973244528937612010-12-20T14:04:53.247+00:002010-12-20T14:04:53.247+00:00"They pop a tank. Then what? Your foe has his..."They pop a tank. Then what? Your foe has his other firebase a long way away. D'oh!"<br />The speeder still wastes a turn getting to its target and risks being shot (with a save of course). Meanwhile your opponent decides the scouts are no longer a threat so ignores them for a little while. Your opponent is now all bunched up on one "firebase" and you close in for the kill.<br /><br />"Bolters are hopeful and even when they do glance you, chances are it will just be a stunned and you can flat-out to *move-block* something. Meanwhile the scouts are dying."<br />There's a 50/50 chance that your speeder will be rendered useless for a turn by a successful glancing hit. Plus move-blocking is hardly its intended purpose.<br /><br />"...how can you really protect all of your tanks from something that can turn up anywhere, has a threat range of 24" and can boogy 24" to completely relocate?"<br />The same way you deal with any deep-strikers. If you aren't coming for my tanks with your landspeeder then I don't care. That means I can protect them and leave my other units in safety. Against scouts you've got to worry about anything being too close to the edge.<br /><br />"Hopefully that does not come across as rude...I am always open to being taught something."<br />Likewise I hope you don't think this is a personal attack. I mean all this comments in the spirit of a reasoned debate. If they've come across otherwise I apologise :) <br /><br />As I said I firmly believe both have a role in any SW army. As I also said it's down to your play style. I think speeders are best supporting sit back and shoot armies and scouts are better for the in your face assault armies. Thanks for the comments.From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-15487084220755665532010-12-20T14:01:21.682+00:002010-12-20T14:01:21.682+00:00@Marshal I'd like to address all your points i...@Marshal I'd like to address all your points individually so I hope you can forgive me for the forum style point/counter-point response.<br /><br />"Bang-for-buck, speed, survivability."<br />I genuinely believe that the scouts have more chance of survival. Neither unit is going to last long but without going into stats I'm sure most units would find it easier to deal with a speeder.<br /><br />"Whilst Mg, Pp and MB are all good things, they all lack range and the Mg is your only great anti-tank weapon."<br />The point is that you have options if your melta weapon misses. If I can spare the points I might also include a combi-melta/PF wolf guard too. The land speeder misses and it's wasted that turn which, like I said, happens a third of the time.<br /><br />"Then you assault the vehicle with your MB. The vehicle explodes and kills your 4+ save Scouts"<br />A vehicle explosion is only S3. If it hits all 5 of your scouts it'll only wound 1 or 2. So odds are you'll fail one save. The the effectiveness of the squad isn't really damaged.<br /><br />"You are paying a whopping 15 points for the Pp....Then you only have the 4+ to save you from gets hot!"<br />It's a 1/12 chance of your guy dying. Yes they're expensive but you don't have to have them. If you have points to spare then why not? <br /><br />"The Mg, whilst a solid gun, is on Infantry. 6" MELTA + 6" move compared to 12" MELTA + 12" move. Are we even comparing the same fruit here? :)"<br />Obviously the multimelta is superior but it's your ONLY option. Miss and then what?<br /><br />"When your Scouts have just assaulted a vehicle, they are in a delicious clump, whether or not the blow the vehicle or not. Guess what my shooty squad has as its special weapon? Flamer. Thanks for the bunch up, I appreciate the help :P"<br />You kill my 135pt squad and I've just killed your land raider/long range tank/heavy weapons team. Not to mention you're firing at my scouts which is keeping you where I want you.<br /><br />"The Speeders don't have any worry of turning up in an irrelevant position"<br />If you scatter (which you will 2/3 of the time) you could potentially end up out of range. I have exactly the same chance of getting where I want with my scouts. Yes you can deploy to stop me but then I'll just move them to another target like an objective. Plus I've made you deploy the way I wanted.<br /><br />"What happens when you play Bloods and they just fast away from the edge but also away from your normal guys?"<br />They've just moved into range of my long fangs. Nice of them! Oh and the same Bloods will make mincemeat of your land speeder with their meltas and furious charge.From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-19946105491599283252010-12-20T06:30:10.087+00:002010-12-20T06:30:10.087+00:00I'll tell you why Speeders are better.
Bang-f...I'll tell you why Speeders are better.<br /><br />Bang-for-buck, speed, survivability.<br /><br />Whilst Mg, Pp and MB are all good things, they all lack range and the Mg is your only great anti-tank weapon.<br />If you can assault for the MBs, you are already within MELTA range. Sure it is not automatic, but very good. Then you assault the vehicle with your MB. The vehicle explodes and kills your 4+ save Scouts *sad face*<br /><br />You are paying a whopping 15 points for the Pp. Yeah they are decent against rear AV, but that is a lot of points for the privilege. Then you only have the 4+ to save you from gets hot! I know guys who don't like plasma on 3+ Marines!<br /><br />So MB and Pp, both expensive items, and less effective than the Mg, put the Scouts in danger just from using them. Bad enough you have to get close enough for the Mg, let only helping to kill your own men off with their own weapons.<br /><br />The Mg, whilst a solid gun, is on Infantry. 6" MELTA + 6" move compared to 12" MELTA + 12" move. Are we even comparing the same fruit here? :)<br /><br />When your Scouts have just assaulted a vehicle, they are in a delicious clump, whether or not the blow the vehicle or not. Guess what my shooty squad has as its special weapon? Flamer. Thanks for the bunch up, I appreciate the help :P<br /><br />Okay, so the Scouts OBEL into the right position and don't end up on the other side of the table [1/6 chance of that happening and another 1/6 if I haven't deployed my tanks next to a short edge]<br />The Speeders don't have any worry of turning up in an irrelevant position.<br />What happens when you play Bloods and they just fast away from the edge but also away from your normal guys? The scouts are left running like those dogs with stumpy little legs, trying to catch up.<br />Anyway, back to the scouts turning up into the right position. They pop a tank. Then what? Your foe has his other firebase a long way away. D'oh!<br />Meanwhile the Speeder uses its 24" threat bubble to attack another vehicle.<br /><br />We all know how Mech is great. Speeders comply to that philosophy. Sure it is AV10. But it is still AV. Bolters are hopeful and even when they do glance you, chances are it will just be a stunned and you can flat-out to *move-block* something. Meanwhile the scouts are dying.<br /><br />If you are having regular success with your scouts, your foe knows they are coming, and you are still getting attacks against his Armour the turn you come in, maybe your foe needs to wise up a bit. It is much easier to counteract what the scouts will be doing because the are so much more *predictable*<br /><br />Speeders have obvious targets, yes, and so are also predictable, but how can you really protect all of your tanks from something that can turn up anywhere, has a threat range of 24" and can boogy 24" to completely relocate? You can't. Unless your whole premise is around move-block and cramming a lá Tau.<br /><br />If you are using scouts, enjoy using them and are having success with them, great. Don't stop using them. But you will not convince me they are as good as Speeders from what you have said. Hopefully that does not come across as rude. I am looking forwards to Abuse Puppy's counter. I am always open to being taught something.<br /><br />**Scouts can assault Devs, etc. That is something the Speeder cannot do and so the scouts get full marks in that category.Marshal Wilhelmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08274955398809519542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-89407921721191338782010-12-19T20:26:10.646+00:002010-12-19T20:26:10.646+00:00I think you have to consider both of these units a...I think you have to consider both of these units as "throw away" if you are going to make the most out of them. They both have the power to strike with precision and potentially take out a high value target, whether that value is in points or nuisance to yourself.<br /><br />I also think the value in both units is more than just earning their points back. There's a psychological element to the threat they pose which will have your opponent considering them when they deploy and move so you are already altering their game-plan just by having the units in your side.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11910862754320747507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-98539898522551882010-12-19T18:48:41.884+00:002010-12-19T18:48:41.884+00:00A nice little write up on the strengths and weakne...A nice little write up on the strengths and weaknesses of both units.<br /><br />I personally find the Land Speeders better due to their speed and survivability against small arms fire.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05601198507521547192noreply@blogger.com