tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post5432092395397657366..comments2023-04-15T10:40:46.482+01:00Comments on From The Fang: 6th Edition 40K - You're Doing It Wrong! (maybe) - Look Out, Sir & Wound AllocationFrom The Fanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-11272111834409153122013-07-24T08:42:59.492+01:002013-07-24T08:42:59.492+01:00Interesting question. Not sure there's a defin...Interesting question. Not sure there's a definitive answer to it though. The rules for LOS only require a model to be within the same unit and within 6" of the character. I can't see why they'd need to be in range. <br /><br />Anyone else care to chip in on this?From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-64640153004611349352013-07-23T18:17:47.664+01:002013-07-23T18:17:47.664+01:00Can LOS be made if the caharcter was the only mode...Can LOS be made if the caharcter was the only model in range?Hyperinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00269246265712764099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-60365123881476796732013-07-17T22:04:50.573+01:002013-07-17T22:04:50.573+01:00I think i misunderstood what you originally meant,...I think i misunderstood what you originally meant, I was picturing you trying to use the bolters range to target a unit 24 in Away and somehow say flamers could hit the same unitTef803https://www.blogger.com/profile/06253761016071349918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-3529992798252069082013-07-17T16:52:36.986+01:002013-07-17T16:52:36.986+01:00@Tef803 - Your understanding is false (and I belie...@Tef803 - Your understanding is false (and I believe quite a common one). Blasts and templates in 6th are ONLY used to work out the number of models hit (excluding barrage). Beyond that, they follow the same rules as any other shooting attack (wounds allocated closest first).<br /><br />Following the rules in the most recent FAQ - you can only kill up to the maximum range of the squad (8" on the flame template, 12" on the PCS' laspistol). Hence the argument for buying the platoon commander a boltgun, as it now means I can kill swarms over 12" away, up to 24" (admittedly 24" kills aren't going to happen, but being able to kill model over 12" away is useful).Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16437458409345658773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-11160353774924571782013-07-17T16:47:46.166+01:002013-07-17T16:47:46.166+01:00Fair enough, the article was ambiguous on that poi...Fair enough, the article was ambiguous on that point.<br /><br />You're right in that it's not THAT likely to come up. It's something worth remembering mind, and is especially important now you consider things like Eldar with battle focus who dance around right on range limits.<br /><br />I run guard, and my 50 point (or now 52 point) units of scoring guardsmen in Vendettas with 4 flamers are one of my favourite units. They won't end up killing units 24" away, but pouncing on a quite bunched blob of guard/orks/tyranids means it's not unreasonable that the wounds start hitting stuff more than 12" away.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16437458409345658773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-36187040959839908002013-07-17T16:08:48.702+01:002013-07-17T16:08:48.702+01:00I do mention it mate but it's lost in that wal...I do mention it mate but it's lost in that wall of text! Looking back at it now I really should've put in some diagrams even just to break things up a bit. <br /><br />Working out LOS after does speed things up but some opponents wouldn't be happy to do it this way (even though it's essentially the same) as it isn't strictly rules as written. <br /><br />The grouping of saves you've described sounds about right. That's how most people do it to shorten the process. I really need to play a game after writing this to see it in action and figure out if I'm missing anything.From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-39401411714715540362013-07-17T16:04:42.617+01:002013-07-17T16:04:42.617+01:00I think he's describing a, somewhat unlikely, ...I think he's describing a, somewhat unlikely, scenario where you have a widely spread target unit with some models under the template(s) whilst the rest are out of template range but can still be killed thanks to that particular interpretation of the rules.From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-25983293369453161902013-07-17T16:03:09.316+01:002013-07-17T16:03:09.316+01:00@James actually the article is correct except I wa...@James actually the article is correct except I was assuming just a single model was attacking. Obviously if there are several models in base contact attacking at a particular step then more enemy models can have wounds applied to them. I get that for more models in base contact you roll them all together.<br /><br />That's a pretty dirty (although seemingly legal) interpretation of the rules. I can't really see it being all that likely to come up though.From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-64446187707319892062013-07-17T12:59:55.766+01:002013-07-17T12:59:55.766+01:00PS: great to see all this laid out so clearly and...PS: great to see all this laid out so clearly and in one place, lets just see how long GW take to FAQ some of it and change the whole process :DAndy - bGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15248283508785967847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-64603303935536129342013-07-17T12:58:46.705+01:002013-07-17T12:58:46.705+01:00Something I don't think you mention explicitly...Something I don't think you mention explicitly is that the attacker can decide in which order you take the saves, so if you have a few S8 AP2 shots, you can force your opponent to take those on the tank first to try and get rid of it, or you can hold those back till the end to try and thin out a screen of regular dudes and make a character take them. The caveat to this is that you have to use an entire wound pool before moving onto the next.<br /><br />Also, I'd always played that if everyone has the same save, you take all the saves, and then work out removing models and LOSs after that. I've also played it that where there are mixed saves/cover, you roll enough dice for the number of wounds at whatever save/cover is closest, remove casualties, then roll again till you've either exhausted the wound pool, or killed off all models in that save/cover combination before moving onto the next grouping. Is this still a correct way of doing things?Andy - bGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15248283508785967847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-70726197746432762612013-07-17T12:46:14.249+01:002013-07-17T12:46:14.249+01:00How would they wound 24 inches away when the enemy...How would they wound 24 inches away when the enemy models have to be under a template in order to wound them?Tef803https://www.blogger.com/profile/06253761016071349918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-72613032806102339602013-07-17T08:35:04.790+01:002013-07-17T08:35:04.790+01:00T-Jay, your understanding of the combat allocation...T-Jay, your understanding of the combat allocation is correct (the article is incorrect on this) - close combat follows the standard wound allocation rules, with a special case for when there are many models that are in B2B. <br /><br />To avoid having to roll every model individually as the closest man will likely vary for each model (this would take bloody ages!), the rulebook adds in the following rule explicitly for combat: <br /><br />"A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base<br />contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step.<br />If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player<br />controlling the models being attacked chooses which<br />model it is allocated to."<br /><br />Anon and FTF - the FAQ rule states that you can kill up to the maximum range of the weapons in the squad, so 5 marines with bolters can only kill stuff up to 24" away, but 4 marines with bolters and 1 with a lascannon can inflict wounds up to 48" away (but naturally, those bolters do still need to be in range of SOMEONE, but they could all only be in range of one enemy model in the unit and still kill beyond 24").<br /><br />This is why you will see Guard 4 Flamer PCS squads paying two points to give the platoon commander a boltgun - allowing them to flame hordes up to 24" away, rather than the 12" the platoon commander's laspistol gives them.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16437458409345658773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-72557017784764516042013-07-16T23:01:04.845+01:002013-07-16T23:01:04.845+01:00right m8, we are along the same line, I don't ...right m8, we are along the same line, I don't know why but I misunderstood that sentence ... :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-90683754431978699562013-07-16T22:14:15.445+01:002013-07-16T22:14:15.445+01:00It was in the FAQ. Basically the front model of yo...It was in the FAQ. Basically the front model of your unit is the cut off. If he and everyone else are firing 24" range weapons at a unit 20+" away there's a chance that some models at the back of the enemy unit can't be killed.From The Fanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01043549318855295914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-75868332412309567992013-07-16T22:07:08.670+01:002013-07-16T22:07:08.670+01:00"Finally, something that I don't think ma..."Finally, something that I don't think many people do (because they see it as complicated), is the weapon range thing. If you've already killed all of the enemy models that are in range of the front firing model in your unit then any excess wounds are lost. Worth bearing in mind."<br /><br />How comes ? The out of range rule on page 16 says the opposite ?<br />"OUT OF RANGE<br />As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls<br />were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of<br />the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that<br />the closest model now lies out of range."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-27246718073625271622013-07-16T19:36:38.381+01:002013-07-16T19:36:38.381+01:00"A key thing to remember is that a wound must..."A key thing to remember is that a wound must be allocated to a model which is in base contact with the specific attacking model, not just any model that is in base contact with an enemy model."<br />As far as I understood, you can allocate the wounds to any model in baseconatct with(or colosest to) a model which made an attack in this initiative step.<br /><br /><br />"The difficulty comes in applying this if your character is the closest model but has the same save as the rest of the unit. In that case you could argue that you'd need to decide how many to LOS before making all of the 3+ saves together. Personally I'd say you could still do them one at a time if your character is the closest model but I'm not totally sure of that. Answers on a postcard."<br />The FAQ makes no difference between characters with the same save as the uint he's in or a better/worse save.T-Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14894112475147110567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2320541665600624608.post-61829498154803041432013-07-16T19:14:42.508+01:002013-07-16T19:14:42.508+01:00Sounds about right. The easiest way to deal with i...Sounds about right. The easiest way to deal with it is to have the shooter roll to hit and wound (that still goes by majority Toughness), and then lay out all the wound dice on the table by Strength and AP value. So if you have six bolter wounds, a plasma wound, and a multimelta wound, you'd have three pools (preferably using three different dice colors).<br />Ask the shooter which he wants you to resolve first. After he chooses, pick up all of the dice from that pool. If your "tank" is in the front, start rolling all the dice in that pool one at a time if you plan to use LOS rolls. <br />I tend to have a Captain in Artificer Armor as my "tank". If he's in front with five Marines behind him in power armor, and facing the above wound pools, I tend to roll his saves in pairs to save time. Let's say I'm forced to take the bolter shots first. I pick up six dice, and say "I'm rolling these against the Captain, two at a time, til he fails one." I roll the first two bolter saves and pass. I roll the second two and fail one. At this point I have two bolter wound left to save, and only two wounds. I then say "I'm now rolling those against the Captain one at a time." I roll one, pass. I roll the second, pass. I've rolled all the bolter saves on my "tank", and failed one. My opponent then wants me to save the plasma. I pickup the plasma die, and declare it as going against the Captain's invulnerable save. Roll, fail. Captain is at one wound now. The only wound left is the melta. If I tank it, there's a 50/50 chance my Captain dies. So, I declare I'm taking a LOS roll to move the wound off of him. Roll for a 2+, pass. I now resolve the wound on the closest Marine, who happens to be the squad's Sergeant. He dies instantly, as he cannot take an armor save on that AP1 wound. You can't further pass the wound again, despite him being a Character! I've seen that attempted in the past. <br />When rolling for a mono-save unit like a Marine Squad with a Sergeant, I simply total up the number of Marines affected before I hit the Sergeant, and roll dice in batches that size. So, if my 10-man Squad takes 20 wounds, and there are seven Marines before the sergeant (six bolters and a flamer) I layout 20 dice, and roll the first set of 7 saves. Fail two, remove two. I have 13 left to save, 5 marines in front. Roll 5 dice, pass all. 8 left to save. Roll five more, fail them all. 3 dice left, no one in front of the sergeant. At this point I can simply roll all the dice and count the failures, then attempt to LOS them away (if I fail all three saves, they all die regardless, so just skip LOS), or I can declare the LOS rolls one at a time, determine the result, and save as appropriate. <br />Some folks prefer the latter method, as it's less like premonition (though perfectly legal). If I only had two dice left when I hit the sergeant (and two Marines behind him), some folks feel more comfortable asking me to roll those one at a time. For some reason they feel like knowing how many LOS rolls are needed AFTER unsaved wounds are determined is unsporting. <br /><br />All in all, the big thing to remember with LOS rolls is to make sure that you're not saving the same wound twice. Before the FAQ, you'd have folks with a Marine Captain in power armor in front of a unit of terminators take 4 AP3 wounds. they'd roll the Captain's 4+ invulnerable, then attempt to pass any failures back to the terminators and make 2+ armor saves on those. TheRhinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13199708616977903957noreply@blogger.com